Podcasts for Profit: How Nicole Otchy Uses Her Podcast as a Sales Asset

Do I have a treat for you, I’m hanging out with the fabulous Nicole Otchy, who’s sharing her experience shifting from personal stylist to becoming the go-to business consultant for personal stylists looking to up their business game. And guess what? She’s even spilling the beans on her new podcast, The Six Figure Personal Stylist Podcast.

We’re getting down to the nitty-gritty of how podcasting isn’t just about hitting ‘record’ – it’s a whole strategy game, baby! I suggest grabbing your notebook because Nicole’s sharing some essential insights. 

In this episode of The More Profitable Podcast, Nicole shares her chill approach to launching the new podcast, and how she turns every episode into an actual sales asset built to convert. We even wrap up with a heart-to-heart on why it’s super important to not go solo when you’re building your empire. Nicole’s got plans for a membership and group program that’s got her podcast as its wingman! 

2:22 – Nicole shares her transition from personal stylist to business consultant and the launch of her styling consultancy.

4:02 – Nicole reflects on her first podcast’s lack of strategic use and the challenges she faced in its promotion.

7:27 – The importance of proactive marketing and building relationships through the podcast.

9:28 – Nicole’s shift from reactive to a proactive approach in podcasting and marketing.

17:47 – Your permission slip to allow your first 20 episodes to be bad and the low-key launch approach.

21:17 – The benefits of having an established audience and building relationships before launching a podcast.

25:31 – The importance of building relationships with your podcast audience.

26:57 – Exploring the benefits of utilizing Podcast Strategy Intensives to gain insights and learning from the “shitty 20 episodes”.

30:13 – How The Profitable Podcaster Mastermind helped Nicole in refining messaging, understanding the audience, and improving podcasting skills.

36:23 – The power of podcasting as a tool for practicing sales skills.

42:23 – Nicole shares examples of how her podcast episodes have influenced potential clients’ decisions.

44:11 – My favorite Instagram hack for sharing my most shared podcast episodes.

49:25 – Visibility fears and the impact of vulnerable podcast episodes on audience engagement.

57:19 – The value of strategic support, accountability, and taking action to progress in podcasting and business.

Connect with Nicole Otchy

The Styling Consultancy | Instagram

The Six Figure Personal Stylist Podcast

Mentioned In Podcasts for Profit: How Nicole Otchy Uses Her Podcast as a Sales Asset

Podcasting for Profitability Roundtable

Podcast Strategy Intensive

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Stacey Harris: If you have struggled with your podcast, even as a veteran or an experienced podcaster, I want you to hear this conversation today. I am joined by client and friend, Nicole Otchy, to talk about her new podcast, to talk about her old podcast, talk about visibility, and how she uses it in her business. Let's get into it.

Welcome to The More Profitable Podcast with Stacey Harris. I'm Stacey. This is the spot to learn more about the strategies, tactics, and tools you need to build your more profitable podcast. My team and I work every day with podcasters like you to shift shows from frustrating time sucks to productive members of your sales team because your show should be built to generate and convert leads. So let's get into it.

You know I don't invite people onto the show very often, and when I do, they are people who can provide you real actual value. That is certainly how I would describe the conversation I'm going to share with you today with friend and client, Nicole Otchy.

Nicole is a business consultant for stylists and personal stylists. She has an incredible podcast that we just launched earlier this year called the Six Figure Personal Stylist Podcast. It is a fantastic show. It is a strategically built show. It is already—just a handful of episodes in—a very effective business asset.

That's what we're going to talk about today. She's also going to share some really great stuff about visibility, about how working with us in different ways has been helpful. She's a unique case, in the sense that I haven't had anybody on the show before, who has done every one of my offerings.

The first time we worked together, she did an intensive. She joined us for the very first round of the Profitable Podcaster Mastermind, and she now works with us in a full production contract. You kind of get a feel for what working with someone in these different ways delivers.

I'm super stoked to get into this conversation. Again, thank you, thank you, Nicole, for joining me. Thank you, thank you for listening. Be sure to reach out and let me know what your takeaways are because I cannot wait to hear what you think of my chat with Nicole.

Awesome. I'm really excited that you're here with me today, Nicole. Thank you for joining me.

Nicole Otchy: Thank you for having me.

Stacey Harris: I have shared, of course, how awesome you are, but I always like, especially for you, because your sort of business journey has been unique in the sense that you now essentially teach what you used to do, which I find is very rare in coaches and I like to see it.

Nicole Otchy: Thank you.

Stacey Harris: Let's start with you telling me a little bit about you and your business trajectory. How did we get here?

Nicole Otchy: Sure. I was a personal stylist for 14 years, in person, in virtual in three major cities. That's actually when I met Stacey. I was a personal stylist. Then I was always on the side training and mentoring stylists, since probably my third year as a stylist. But it just wasn't something I talked about publicly. I was with two to three clients a year, on and off, I do one-off calls.

Then I knew I was at a crossroads where I didn't want to be a stylist anymore, it didn’t just appeal to me after almost 15 years, and it was time for something new. At that time, I started to get more inquiries about helping other stylists with their business model.

I kind of just leaned into it to see how it would go, and it took off pretty quickly. I ended up closing the styling business and then officially launching the styling consultancy, a business consulting firm for personal stylists in April of 2023.

Stacey Harris: That's awesome. You had a podcast for your first business too, for the styling business too, right?

Nicole Otchy: I did, and there's really no comparison. Thanks to you. I'm just kidding, I'm not going to bury the lead here, friends.

Stacey Harris: Spoiler alert.

Nicole Otchy: I wouldn't do it the way I did it before.

Stacey Harris: How did you use your podcast in its first iteration for the styling business? Were you using it in the way you're using it now as a sales asset or was it just a thing that existed?

Nicole Otchy: I thought I was. I think like all business owners, I thought I was. But there was very little strategy nor did I have any idea that there should be. I was talking about topics that were relevant to my client.

I wasn't trying to get sponsorship or do something else with it. In that sense, I think from the outside, people would say, it is similar. I've actually had a lot of stylists listen to that podcast and then seek me out. It has been also a very unexpected sales asset.

I wouldn't say it's the best one because it doesn't have good calls to action. It wasn't related to specific services. There was no real business and sales strategy, which was the problem. It was just like, “Oh, crap, what am I going to talk about this week?”

Then it would like go off to an editor who would just edit it. Then I would have to do all of the rest of it myself, which meant that sometimes not only was there no strategy behind when things were coming out and why things were coming out, it was really hard to keep up with the promotion of it because I had to do everything except for the literal editing of the show, which they were like 30 minutes.

Every other piece of it, it was on my plate and there were weeks where if I had clients, it just wasn't going well, it wasn't getting promoted, it wasn't getting completed, it was going out, but it wasn't acting as like a true sales asset. That was a problem.

Stacey Harris: I love that you bring that up though, because I think a lot of us have had that experience where we're going through the motions of having a podcast that supports our business, but there are these fundamental elements that are missing.

Because we're trying to DIY it, because we're doing it all in addition to delivering services and working, it becomes just one more thing. Then it becomes about checking the content box instead of building content that supports moving your business forward. You end in this loop where like, “I'm trying really hard. I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do for this podcast, but it doesn't actually work.” That's where we get to pod fade and burnout because we're like, “This is too hard to not work.”

Nicole Otchy: Yeah, and what I say too is, first of all, I didn't even know people that produced podcasts. I didn't know there was this way of looking at podcasts until I met you. I'm sure that there were, but I didn't know it. The people that I had hired weren't doing that.

I think that, to be honest, and like even broader in this conversation, because I think that what I've learned from you has just really trickled over to all of my marketing, all of my messaging, and all of the ways that I handle how I promote my business, which is that it should be an asset for your business and assets aren't something that is reactive, there's something that is proactive.

Because not only are you selling, but you're building a relationship, and what we fail to understand—because we're so busy and because sometimes people don't tell us, or because we're not following the people that could tell us honestly—is that when you are coming from a place of, “Oh, crap, I have to check the content box,” you are not only leaving so much money on the table, but it just brings an energy to your business that's crappy.

People can feel that, which is why I'm still amazed, honestly, that people listen to the old podcast and are like, “Huh, I think I want to hire this woman.” Because I know that nobody knows what's going on in my head, but it was so scattered and while I did know my industry well, which I think is true to so many people that have a podcast, they know their industry but knowing your industry and knowing how to sell people into your expertise are totally different, and thanks to Stacey, I look at all of my marketing differently. Yes, the podcast is the key part of that, but all of it.

Stacey Harris: It's funny how often our clients say that the quarterly strategy calls have become sort of like their marketing marker now. They're like, “Oh, I know I'm going to have to get on this call with Stacey in June, so I need to make these decisions about Q3 because Stacey's going to ask me what we're doing and I need to know.”

It's interesting how when you strategically invest your time in one place, you really do get to reap the benefits in a lot of parts of your business, even if my team and I, or whoever you're working with, never actually touch those parts of your business, because it really shifts your approach to them.

I love the language you used around like shifting from reactive to proactive because that is such a different energy, and one of the things I love about podcasts is that I invite the leads that I am educating into a decision to spend some time with me.

I want that to come from a place of like, “This is exciting, and this is what it's like to work together. This is how we move forward.” Not of the energy of like, “Well, I just need to check the content box, this literally just needs to go out,” because no one's going to respond to that positively. No one's going to be fired up and excited. Nobody's going to move into action when they're sitting in the energy of you dreading the action you're taking.

Nicole Otchy: If they are, they might not be a great client.

Stacey Harris: That's true.

Nicole Otchy: That's another thing is like, "Yeah, some people will, but you might never be the client you want." What it's done for me on so many levels though is absolutely it's the accountability of knowing every quarter, I got to be like, “This is what I'm thinking.”

Also just for the record, Stacey is an exceptional strategist, I had a lot of business coaches, a lot of strategists in my career, hired probably over $300,000 worth of them, not even including the investment for the podcast, and by far she's one of the smartest people I know, just to be honest.

I'm not just saying that, it's true and she can be a great podcast producer and not be the level of strategist she is so it's a gift on every level. But what I will say is that just that accountability for certain people, myself included, and certain people that have a motivation style, but they do better being accountable—which is a real motivation style—it will make you be better at your business, even if the person you're talking to isn't as great as Stacey, and she's amazing.

I feel like I'm getting a thousand gifts every month when I get all my four full podcasts that are produced assets for my marketing, and what's wild is that how much space it gives me to be better at the relationship that I'm trying to create with the listener because it's such an intimate relationship, and I really don't think with my first podcast I got it. I don't think I fully got it.

Stacey Harris: No, honestly, I think I witnessed that realization because the first way we kind of worked together—although I think we did some consulting-y tech stuff with your first show—but the first way we meaningfully worked together was the Profitable Podcaster Mastermind.

I remember you having the realization that stylists, your new clients, were listening to your old podcast and that's how they were finding you. I was like, "Yeah, it's a sale’s asset.” It exists because it is you doing really good work. You were like, “Oh, this could work in a really different way than I thought it could work.” It was so exciting.

Nicole Otchy: Yeah, [inaudible] styling clients. What was happening as a result, and I'm sharing this because I think that we limit how we think about our own marketing and our own business, it’s like what a business lesson, and Stacey and I then had the idea of like, “Oh, we could repurpose some of those and I could basically critique them, which we'll probably do more like next season.” But just generally speaking, because I was talking about styling in a specific way, it brought coaching clients to me that I wasn't even entertaining at the moment, because I was showing my expertise.

Now, that wasn't necessarily the thing that I think really did me a good job for my styling clients because I honestly think I was giving away a lot of the important stuff. I wasn't helping them make a decision, I was educating them, and that has been another key thing that Stacey has coached me again and again about. Because most of us came up in the world of educational content, give value and there's different kinds of value it turns out.

Stacey Harris: Well, and I think there are a lot of us who spend, whether there's like a neurodiversity aspect or like just women energy, whatever it may be, we spend a lot of time trying to prove how smart we are.

We think the easiest way to do that is to come, and I'll tell you I'm an expert, I'll show you I'm an expert, I will tell you everything I know about this thing that I know, then you'll realize how smart I am and you will just come running to pound down my door.

Except I've never actually told you where my door is. I've never actually told you how to find me, or how to run here, or that I could help you, that this isn't just a place for you to feel smarter.

Once upon a time, I think that was more effective or somewhat effective because there was—honest to God—less content. There was just less of us doing it. But there's so much now and so much of it is noise.

We also now have this pull to really prove our expertise because there is more content and there's more crappy content. There's more faux expertise. There are enough people who are taking this mentality of, “Well, I know just a little bit more than my customers, so I can broadcast this stuff.” That's often wrong, if not lacking some nuance.

We double down on our expertise. We double down on educating, we double down on trying to prove how smart we are. When really the smartest thing we can do, the most supportive for our audience is to prove our expertise in the process and not in the content.

Meaning, I'm such an expert in what I do, I can tell you exactly how we're going to get you there. I can show you the roadmap. I don't need to tell you how all of that happens, because me telling you I know how to get us there is all the expertise your customer wants.

They just need to know you know how to get there. The rest of it is overwhelm. The rest of it is either distraction because they've convinced themselves now you've told them enough, they can go do it, which is so rarely true. We all know because we've been on the receiving end of that content where you're like, “Oh, I learned on YouTube how to build a shed. It'll be fine.” No, I still am not going to be able to build a shed. I don't care how many YouTube videos I watch.

My husband is a diesel mechanic by trade and I remember being like, “I could just watch a video and I could do that.” No, no, I couldn't. I definitely, definitely couldn't. But if we're broadcasting just the house, it just makes the listener feel like, “Oh, well, I have enough information. I can figure this out.” And we prolong their discomfort. We prolong their purchase time.

We push off when they get to a point where they're like, “Yeah, okay, it's time for me to meaningfully make change.” I think one of the things your podcast does and the reason it appeals to who it appeals to now, is because you're speaking a language they understand and you're demonstrating the expertise of knowing how to build that business, of knowing how to deliver that business.

One of the things I love that we did was we used that to leverage driving traffic to the new show. Let's talk a little bit about the new show because I mean, you're still in your first few months post-launch. But how has this process and launch been in comparison to the first one?

Nicole Otchy: Well, it's one month. It's literally like a couple of days more than a month. It’s wild. We're recording this on May 14th, 2024, I have a very small Instagram. It's like under a thousand. This is why I love the way Stacey approaches this. It's like the launch was the most low-key thing ever, which is very much my style for launching. I hate a launch launch.

Stacey has this genius, I mean, absolutely genius belief, and it really helped me with my first podcast too, the first 20 episodes are for you and our trash. Now, in my specific case, it was a little bit different. I think we talked about it because I did have a podcast before.

I'm only talking to other personal stylists. People know me in the industry. It wasn't like I was a new business owner, never podcasted. I needed some nuance around my strategy and my plan, but I always thought I was using it for my business sales. I just wasn't doing it right. That was handled.

But I liked that about Stacey's approach. I'm sharing that in case you're listening to this and you're like, "Oh, I have to have a million dollars, and I have to do this big launch,” no, take her advice and do the 20 for yourself and be shitty at it.

Stacey Harris: We're totally allowed to swear here. It's okay.

Nicole Otchy: Okay, I was like, “Oh, no.”

Stacey Harris: We literally have a podcast episode coming out in a couple of weeks. Teaser guy, from after this release—actually, it might have come out already—but we're talking about the shitty 20-episode experiment.

Nicole Otchy: Perfect.

Stacey Harris: We either have context already or you will soon of this.

Nicole Otchy: And you don't know, search for it if you haven't, but she just has been [inaudible]

Stacey Harris: We'll put it in the show notes.

Nicole Otchy: Yeah, so it's my favorite thing because I think that I bring them up because it's a very good, the fact that it wasn't this expectation, even as a more seasoned podcaster that I was supposed to come out the gate like I thought I was the first time of like big launch.

I had to get people rating the show beforehand. I mean, actually in this show, I didn't even have to ask anyone, it was pretty well-rated the first day it came out. I couldn't believe that I was begging people last time. This time I forgot, I was away on a trip with my mother-in-law when it launched.

We're at the table and they're like, “So what's new?” I'm like, “Oh, sorry about my phone. I just launched my podcast.” They were like, “You launched a podcast thing and you're away?” I'm like, “Yeah.” I wasn't at my computer. I did ask for people to review it if they could, but it wasn't a big deal.

At my first launch, I was so anxious about like, "Is this the right first episode? Did I say the right things? Are these the right three first episodes?" Because you launch it with a few lives. It just was nothing like that. I was like, "Okay, well, this is the long game.”

That is why having someone like Stacey on your team is so important because you need the perspective of if you're going to invest in a podcast, it is not the same as other investments. It is in fact an investment, a well worth wild one, one that will pay you back a million times and it's a freaking investment.

Buckle up, because investments and relationships are connected and I was thinking like I'm launching this to build relationships. I had already been able to generate six figures of revenue from April to April with less than 500 Instagram followers.

I knew this podcast did not need that many downloads or whatever, it needed the right people downloading it, and Stacey was behind that 100%, just encouraging that instinct I had.

When that happened, you and I, as the people doing the podcast, can focus on what matters, which is making sure that you're building a relationship with people that are there, not on a fancy launch, because nobody cares about your launch, they only care about themselves.

When in a media company, we're a business that's using this as a communication tool, fancy launches are absolutely a waste of time. I think maybe Stacey believes it's different, maybe that was just like she was going with my style. I think it's trash.

Stacey Harris: No, I think for me, what's dangerous about a fancy launch, what's dangerous about putting that much energy in it, is I think it's one of the leading causes of pod fade, honestly, because it burns you out.

If you're somebody who is anxious or stressed out about doing it right, I mean, I've been podcasting for 640 some episodes at this point. Do you think anybody listens to that first episode? No. It doesn't matter if it's shitty now.

Frankly, it didn't matter then because not a whole lot of people are listening at the beginning. It's about being able to find your legs. You came in ready to talk to the right people instead of talking to everyone, and that allowed us to really quickly build stuff that made sense.

We didn't have to spend a lot of time figuring out who that right audience is because that's oftentimes part of that first 20 shitty episodes, is sort of feeling into who specifically you're talking to.

The fact that you came in with established content that worked, even if it wasn't on a podcast, for you was on Instagram. You had been really building that audience, building those relationships, been in those conversations.

Your 20 episodes didn't need to be 20 episodes. You'd bought some behind-the-mic experience with the first show. You had bought some talking to your audience and understanding their needs, and time in the Instagram stuff.

You were able to come in, “Yes, I'm great, absolutely.” But you were ready to step in to the kind of show you needed, and I think that's the work that can really benefit you the most before launching a show is to spend some time talking to your people.

Get out of the “This is what I think they need. This is what I think they want to hear.” Just go be in conversation with them. I think one of the greatest things you did pre-launch was your roundtables series, where you had people come in, and you had conversations, and you talked through this information with them because you got immediate feedback about what was hitting and wasn't hitting.

Those soundbites and those little pieces of language that we end up using now in the podcast came from trying that on in Instagram Stories, came from doing that in the roundtable and really being in conversation with your clients.

I think that's a powerful tool that is wildly underutilized. It's a much better time, like use of your time than being stressed out about crafting the perfect first episode and spending a gazillion dollars in launch ads that are going to drive you to what will big picture a year from now, two years from now be your least effective episodes because you will just continue to get better.

One of the things you said and I hammer this drum a lot, this is a long game, in the big picture, your first 20 episodes will not matter. A year from now, very few people are going to be going back that far. Do you want to podcast for at least a year? Well, then let's not spend too much time worried about this.

Nicole Otchy: But I think your point to people that are listening and maybe even are advanced business owners, even if you're not, even if you're just like, “Okay, no, I want this podcast,” because I'm sure you get people that come to you and are like, “I did that. I know this is what I want. I want to do my first 20 shitty episodes with you,” and it's like, “Okay.”

Stacey Harris: Sometimes.

Nicole Otchy: Yeah, and that's fine. And if you're going to do that, I think really the highest and best piece of recommendation that Stacey's giving and I can give as a business consultant is make sure that wherever you're driving people to from social media, whether it's Instagram in my case, or your blog, or whatever, make sure that your messaging is already working there for free.

Then you can speed up the 20 shitty episodes to some degree. You're still going to need to be better, the skill of podcasting still needs to happen, and the content of the podcast could be better and faster.

That was for me. I was happy to make the investment and I needed to know—and it's not just with my podcast—I don't even have a website yet. Why? Because I was trying to make sure that everything I was saying, and everyone I was talking to, and the process that I was developing one-on-one was working.

I was iterating. When I do invest in a podcast or I do invest in a website or whatever or a copywriter, it may not be perfect and it may not be forever, but it's a hell of a lot better as a sales asset that I'm putting my money in.

I've been selling off a PDF for a year and honestly, there's part of me that wouldn't even have a website right now if I didn't have a podcast to put on it. That is how useless these things are if you don't know and you can make it so hard.

What you need to know is how to talk to people that want your help, how to build a relationship in a way that feels good for both sides and then make investments, and that will get you faster through that funny first shitty episodes if you're someone that wants to do that. Just a piece of advice.

Stacey Harris: Absolutely. Honestly, I'd take it a step further. I'd say if you can't close a sales call consistently, I'm not saying you've got to have 100% batting average, nobody does. We're all taking baseball numbers here. As long as you're succeeding three or four times at a 10, you're fine. You're hitting pretty well.

But if you're finding that you are hitting maybe one out of every 10 sales calls that you're closing, it's not time to drive more traffic to the sales calls. It's time to figure out what's wrong with your offer. I think so often our instinct is if we just get more people, we talk about this a lot with podcasts, like, “Oh, I need the show to grow,” we mostly work with established podcasters, we mostly work with people who have been doing this 50, 100 episodes, and oftentimes I'll sit down with somebody on a sales call and they'll be like, "I've been doing this for a while. It's fine. I want to keep doing exactly what it's doing. I just need you to help me grow it," I go, "Cool, so are you seeing a lot of purchases from the show?” People are like, "No, my customers never talk about it. In fact, a lot of my clients don't even know I have a podcast." Then it is not time to grow your show.

Nicole Otchy: Don't waste your money. I'm sorry, you wasted a lot of money.

Stacey Harris: You have an absolute disconnect here. I love your advice about using Instagram, using social media, using some kind of platform. DIY your own show if you want to start doing it. There are a lot of good options to do your first 20 episodes.

This is actually a really popular way to use our Podcast Strategy Intensive, is we'll build that plan, and then you go DIY your show and just get it up and do it dirty and it's fine. That is so informative.

Oftentimes we'll have clients who do that intensive, who do those shitty 20 episodes, and then come back. They're like, “Cool, now I'm actually ready to step into this because I learned so much about--” and now I'm getting people who are coming to my sales call and doing the thing I so often talk about, which is regurgitate stuff from the podcast to me on a sales call, which is the most fun. You've gotten the joy of this, I know.

Nicole Otchy: Yes, I have got it in DMs. I've got it on sales calls. For my last podcast, I did an intensive with Stacey towards the end of my podcast, because when COVID hit, I had stopped.

My podcast actually started to do really well. When I did that intensive, now that I think back, that was [inaudible] over COVID, I started getting a stylist coming to me, asking me to coach them, even though it was not public knowledge that I did that. It was a direct result of that.

Then when Stacey did the Mastermind, I knew I was thinking of this, but I wasn't quite ready yet. I just wanted to think about how I would even think about the show, so that I could start practicing. That's another thing I had in mind.

Even if you're not ready, do the podcast—and you want to do a group thing—it’s so helpful, I learned so much from every aspect of it. I knew I wasn't going to do it myself and I still used it because I still used ideas I got on there on my social media.

Another side note I just want to add, if you are thinking, “How do I do this?” or you are anxious in a visibility sense about having a podcast, even though I wasn't anxious about it, I was thinking, “Okay, I did the roundtable which for free public calls on specific topics to start to use to like practice my messaging and hear people.”

It was also a placeholder until we did launch the podcast. I was always planning. It was just like I needed something in the interim, so I did that. Then I had a private, and by private, I don't even mean like a fancy one. I mean, I did a recording on Zoom that I put in a Google folder, and I sent to my established clients as a nurture mechanism to also practice what they would want and understand what they would respond to once they had worked with me.

I was practicing this idea because I'm obsessed with not being a perfectionist after years of being like that, which is why I will do it shitty the first time over and over again because it makes you more money and gives you more impact, I don't care what anyone tells me.

Stacey Harris: It makes it so much faster.

Nicole Otchy: I have done it in the hardest ways possible. That's what my thing is like, “Just do it.” If you are that person and you are nervous or anxious, do what I did. Do a little “private podcast.” Don't even invest in a private podcast but do it on Zoom, stick it in a Google folder, and practice. Send it to the people who already love you, are your fans, see if you're going to get responses. Tell them to DM you voice notes.

Let them interact so that when you do launch a podcast and you do make the investment, you feel it. Like you're all in it and you're excited because it would be squandering Stacey's strategy genius for you to do those things and then do nothing with it.

Stacey Harris: The Mastermind was a lot of how you started with that private stuff for the existing clients. A lot of what we did in there actually ended up in that space, and ended up in our first strategy call. We pulled a lot of your notes from the Mastermind into that first quarter of the strategy call.

Nicole Otchy: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, and this is also just from a business perspective, we often think that the people that are like one to one or not your group program people, that's just a bunch of bullshit.

If you are selling too many things that don't make sense for your audience, like, yeah, streamline it because then when you can kind of, every step of doing Stacey's process, now I'm obviously the most in, has made me better. It was like me getting reps in and now I have my reps so I know how this should work, so when I hand it over, I am in-- It’s a partnership.

It's not like, “Well, I don't know Stacey, go figure out my business.” That's not your job. It's never a marketing agency company podcast, or it's not their job. It's your job to know how your business works so you can help them help your business. That's what the reps were for me. It was like, “How can I help this partnership be better?

Stacey Harris: I love that. It's interesting because we've seen that a couple of times with people who have joined us for the Mastermind where it was them feeling into either their first podcast, but honestly, I'm thinking we've got two people, you and one other person I could think of, that came in and had podcasted before.

Nicole Otchy: Yeah.

Stacey Harris: You started a new show and the other one relaunched. We relaunched their show. But it is the group program specifically, is such a nice way to be in the room with your podcast again. It's almost like couples therapy for you and your podcast.

It's more like, “Okay, why wasn't this working before? Where do we need to bridge the gap so that we can clear things up?”

Nicole Otchy: That is the tagline. I think that should be the tagline. Oh, my God, I love it. Especially because you do talk to a fair. I think there's this idea that if you are an established podcaster, that kind of thing maybe isn't for you, but actually it's absolutely for you because even, and we've talked about this, Stacey, I know you've had this experience with so many people.

I know it comes to you and it comes to me in a different context where they're like, "Oh, I had someone else doing my show. I had someone else doing my marketing,” in my case it’s what I see, and they're like, "I guess it works. Can you just do more of the same as you said?" Then when you dig in, it didn't work. It just got out the door.

Working means it's converting. Working means you're getting one book. Working means people are at least telling you, "Oh, this really hit." Even if you say, "It sucked." At least they're listening. They're having a reaction.

Stacey Harris: Or they're having no reaction, which is also data.

Nicole Otchy: Yeah. But most people that come to us as the like, "Well, just tell me it from me." It's like, "Tell me what to say." For you, it's like, "Well, let's just stick on it."

Stacey Harris: It's often still, "Tell me what to say."

Nicole Otchy: Yeah, which is a different version. I want you to be the person that gets it out the door now, not those people. I get why you think that that's how this works, but going through the Mastermind was really helpful because when you don't understand your relationship to your marketing in your podcast, you muddle the relationship with your buyer, and I did not see that.

I was willing to believe what Stacey said, but I didn't see my own flavor of BS that I was doing until I was in there and practicing the things in the Mastermind and listening to other people. So useful.

Stacey Harris: That's one of my favorite things about the Mastermind. It's also why it's never more than five people in a cohort, is because I want you to really be able to hear each other, for lack of a better way to phrase this, verbally process, and like talk through a question.

We have that program structured, so every other call is literally consulting. You come in with your questions regarding what we've talked about in the workshop, and we talk through what I taught you. Because I think so many of these programs, specifically in the podcasting space, are like, “Let me just give you the boxes to check technically. Here are 50 content ideas. Go have a show.” There is that relationship. There is that blending that has to happen.

Nicole Otchy: To be fair, you do give people the technical [inaudible]. I could have left there and died on my own. I just didn't have the capacity because this is where the business was.

If I was starting out newer, if I didn't have 15 years of experience, I couldn't have launched this business the way that I could because of my prior, that is a privilege of having had a 14-year career in a field and then going and consulting which I highly recommend, much easier way to run a business than my last foray.

You have to be a beginner at some point and I'm still a beginner in different ways, just new things. What I thought about when you were saying that is that every step of the way, whether it was the intensive, and I kind of started to steer the ship of my old podcast around and started to think about it differently and just approach it differently, whether it was doing the group program and the Mastermind being like, “Okay, wait, what is my relationship to this? How do I want to show up? Where do I want to practice?” and just having this freedom in my mind of knowing if I did want to do something, I did have the technical, like you told me what to do.

I just didn't want to, but I could. Then at every level, there was freedom, obviously at the highest level, I just speak into a microphone and you guys make it sound great, so excellent and I get the strategy so I know what to say when I get in that microphone. I have someone else to balance the idea off. I have someone else to say like, "Does this sound bananas or not?" Which is so important and like literally so valuable.

Stacey Harris: The bananas check is critical. I’ll ask my team, “Do I sound crazy? This doesn't sound crazy, right? It makes sense.”

Nicole Otchy: Because you're so close to it. There's also the thing of like either using it as kind of a public sales tool. Having sales skills, it's just what I'm learning a lot more about, it's a skill and this is a skill, and podcasting in this way, in this manner, is learning sales skills and that takes practice and it's public practice which is not for the faint of heart.

Stacey Harris: Well, and for me I love the podcast and I love that you're talking about it this way—so I'm sorry to interrupt—for me, you recording a podcast is me putting in the reps on my sales activity.

It's me practicing making the ask. It's me practicing a call to action. That can't stop. I have run marathons. I could not go run a marathon tomorrow. You want to know why? I haven't trained in literal years. Even though it's a skill, it's a skill we can lose.

Having this element in my business is something that allows me and keeps me accountable to doing those reps, practicing those sales skills, making the ask, showing up in my offer, talking about what I do. If that's something that you're uncomfortable with, start practicing because it's literally the only way you get comfortable.

It's funny, we've got a client who just started working with us at the beginning of this year and they have a guest-driven show, they've done 100-plus episodes of a guest-driven show. We started talking about solo episodes, which is why we've talked about solo episodes on the podcast so much this last couple of months because this came up with a couple of clients.

We were talking through the discomfort of having to show up solo and then sell yourself. Obviously not in like ShamWow way, which by the way super just aged myself. Do they even still have ShamWows? But like in a real meaningful in conversation kind of way.

Which by the way has made it so much easier for me to do that in networking conversations, that 60-second pitch you do at the top of a networking event, you know how much easier that is for podcasters who use their show to strategically sell because this is a tool. It is a mechanism to practice those sales skills.

Yes, that's not always super comfy, which is one of the reasons I love supporting our clients the way we do is we talk about holding your hair episodes on the show all the time where there's an episode where you’re like, “That one was scary,” and I'm like, “I promise it was good and it'll be okay and I'm here. It’s going to be alright.”

But also it becomes so habitual when you make space for it and when you come at it going, “This is what I'm selling. I know what this episode is for, I know who it's for, I know its purpose in my business.”

It makes it so much easier to do the uncomfortable thing of making the offer, of practicing that sales skill. You put in those reps when you have content that is meant to be a part of your sales team that you just can't get another way without being on the phone with somebody every week or every other day or whatever it is.

Nicole Otchy: That's a one-to-many conversation. It's like the most efficient sales conversation, and that is a long game. I should remind people who might be panicking. If you're doing sales through a relationship and that's the thing, is that you have to rethink, and people that tend to hide behind, I never hide behind guest episodes, but I didn't really understand why I was doing them, I was just like, “Oh, this is going to make me--” You had a big thing around, to be honest, honestly, I thought that guest was a good way to get more reach with your show.

Stacey Harris: It's because that's what you were told. It is what people are told.

Nicole Otchy: Right. Maybe, but again, I still have a pretty small incredibly niche audience. I mean, it doesn't even bother me anymore because I am now so niche that I'm like virtually, I can't--

Stacey Harris: It's you.

Nicole Otchy: One of the things that I've learned is I could get guests on my show, but maybe it would be helpful to my clients. But honestly, that's probably more helpful in like a private course from doing an interview and getting their questions asked.

They don't just want a random interview, they want to get their questions asked from an expert so why would I waste your time? And this was another thing, the 20 shitty episodes and why do you even have guests on your show to begin with were the two things when I first met Stacey, we met through Mastermind that we're in for a year, it just rearranged my brain. This is what it means to strategically look at your business.

People don't even know what that means. I'm just being clear, this is what it means, I had not seen it so I'm telling you to look out. There's so much BS in the online space, particularly with business coaches and consultants. I'm particularly sensitive to it since now I'm in that seat and have invested so much money. This is the kind of thing that actually makes a difference.

Why are you having a guest on? Oh, it's not to help the same goal, which is: Is the listener getting further away or closer to a buying decision with this guest? Well, guess what? If it's a random person that just is an expert, also a business owner, then stop.

Because if you need that to hide, that tells me so much about your business and the self-development that you need to get. Let's just rip the band-aid off. If you need to have guests, at least have guests that are your clients.

Those have been incredibly great sales assets I would just like to add. The work that this podcast is doing for me is bananas. I have two great examples of things that like, when Stacey says “assets,” that's another thing that really woke up my brain. I was like, “Huh, I could be working smarter and not harder.

Another reason why I want to have someone produce this because this is going to be my salesperson when I'm sleeping. Please, polish it up, it doesn't mean it's perfect because nobody else knows what that should look like perfect, only you do, but let's get it as good as possible.

Two things I have been recently is one, I have a client or had a potential client trying to decide between two of my like my highest touch or a group program—that's really all I have—and they went to the people on the podcast.

No one's like, “Can I get a referral from a client?” That's another thing I can't stand because people are busy, you're a grown-up, make your own decision, what questions do you have for me?

I got this as a stylist too, what are they going to tell you that is going to be any different? But it's helped with that, I don't have to give names of people and bother them. They can DM the person if they want to, because in my case, they're other business owners, and they can ask. It's worked out well.

The other one is I had somebody find me through somebody else and say, “Oh, I've invested in their coaches, consultants, and I never really finished. Blah, blah, blah.” Well, don't you know I had a podcast episode on it and I was like, “Oh, my gosh, here.”

The excitement I had to send that link, I was like, “Stacey.” It's such a cool feeling. She was like, “Oh, my gosh, this is amazing. Exactly what I needed.” I did a one-time many sales presentation basically in that podcast and now it's still helping me sell one on one. People feel so taken care of. Like, “What? This is the best investment in my career. This is bananas.”

Stacey Harris: Well, and what I love about those episodes that you send because I have two, A, two things, the episodes that you have to send, anytime I've just done an episode a second time, I actually create a saved response in Instagram so that I can just go in and send that. The thing I did before that, that you can also do is if you have an iPhone, you can create a shortcut that will pull up, like auto-correct a bunch of text so you could put in like, for one I've got when I sold a membership, I had OB price. OB objection and their objection was the price.

When I typed in OB price to my iPhone, a bunch of texts would come up that included a podcast episode talking about the value of the investment of joining that program when it existed. I could send an episode really quickly without every time having to type it up.

I now have them saved as Instagram responses because I find it to be more effective than trying to remember what code I made up for it in my keyboard of my phone. I have more than once had to just go into the settings and been like, “Which one did I write?” Either way, that's a really good thing. The other piece of this though, is those are the ones that I put a little note around and I include them in sale sequences in my email.

Common objections, these things that are coming up all the time, these case study episodes with clients, those go in email funnels, because oftentimes we can present them to somebody before they even realize they have the question.

Now how much more of an expert, going back to what we were talking about, about demonstrating our expertise through understanding where they are throughout the sales process, because if you can identify my problem before, I can identify my problem, you get my problem and you're my solution.

Whereas if you're in constant—to use a word you used earlier—reaction mode where it's like, "Oh, that's your question. Let me run and put something together and here you go," instead of going, "Oh, yeah, here you go," “You know how to take care of me? I'm in, I'm all the way in.”

That's true for all of us because our capacity gets smaller and smaller and smaller. It's our job to be ahead of their questions. When you can pull these assets out of your back pocket, when you can grab these and send them right away and just walk them through now a 20-minute what feels like you talking to them voice note instead of a three-line message in Instagram, look at the impact, look at the relationship difference of what you're building.

Nicole Otchy: I think that, yes, there are a lot of pockets, people are like, "I thought that should be pockets out there." First of all, not every pockets is for business. Some of them are their own businesses and people don't get that.

Then another thing is a podcast for your business, similar to social media for your business, is not the same thing as just like being popular or having people liking you. It is just not the same. Of course, you want them to, but I don't need them to like me. I need them to trust me and respect me. That is a different vibe.

What Stacey just said is really interesting because I should be saying it and I was like, “This is how looking at your strategy and looking at the way she sits down with you quarterly or does it in the one-off or does it in the Mastermind, this is how you start as anxious as you can be about that visibility piece from like being, this is how you become an expert and a leader.”

Again, it's the reps that we keep talking about, and I think Stacey and I are talking about it a lot today just for fun, which was crazy, because we've been in a lot of rooms in the online space and it's very much the still, we're selling this idea that like, “Take your laptop and go sell by the pool,” sure, yeah, and you still got to do your reps. I don't care what you do though.

That is the cost of admission to have the life where you can sit by the pool because you can sit by the pool with no clients or you can sit by the pool with clients. But I personally would rather do it with clients and money in my bank account.

Let's not screw around here with this. When she gives you a strategy, however you get to her in that strategy, you can now focus on implementing the strategy instead of worrying about yourself.

That is so important, you are not going to be the same kind of nervous. If you have somebody that's telling you, “This is the steps in order to make this an asset that sells for you,” well, now, I don't need to think about myself. I just need to think about what is the asset and if it's not perfect, you can record it another time. You do it next. Stacey, how many of the same episode flavors have you done in your 600 episodes?

Stacey Harris: Bazillions. I say this all the time. We are all saying the same three to five things. I have done 600 episodes that cover eight things total. That's because we rebranded in there, we've covered other things.

But literally, I say a lot of the same stuff to you guys on the show, like a lot, a lot. Because we all need to hear it in different ways, different times, different mediums. It's called having a brand. It's called having an expertise, it's very specific.

The thing I love about what you're talking about with the visibility thing is when you can take out the “What do I say?” and the “Why am I saying this?” you'll be amazed at how much easier it is for you to show up.

Nicole Otchy: So much of visibility fear, as somebody that has had to work those on many levels for decades, is knowing the difference between your own, in my case, there was a specific thing that happened that created the fear, but I think it's just so much of it is we fear being judged, but if you have somebody by your side like Stacey or a business coach, but she is a business coach, [inaudible] but just don't need to say that, but okay.

Stacey Harris: What did I tell you about telling people that?

Nicole Otchy: Let’s not create controversy [inaudible] the drama. But all of that to say when you have that, one of the things people don't realize they're paying for, and I wish they did, is that you are getting outside of yourself. It's helping you see the problem differently, and it's helping you honestly be a leader and you can't be a leader and be stuck in your own mental anguish over what people are going to think of you. You can have those moments to yourself.

Stacey Harris: We all do.

Nicole Otchy: 100%. That can be a moment because you're a human, but it can't be all the moments. What hiring somebody that can help you see this in a system systematic way does is it focuses your brain so it gets you off of you, and gets you on them, and then you can have the panic later, but that doesn't mean that podcast episode isn't impactful and important in helping people and a sales asset. But save the freak out for after so you at least get it done.

Stacey Harris: Absolutely, and this is what I talk about hold your hair episodes. We have clients who record episodes that are not super comfy, and then they're like, "I'm going to need you to tell me if I sounded cuckoo bananas”

The most common one is, "Did that even make sense? Did I just blabber on in the general direction of what we were talking about, or is this concise?” Honestly, every single time it's better than we think it is for someone outside of us. This is great.

Honestly, the clients who come to me and they're freaked out about an episode or kind of like we have one of these “hold your hair” moments, they're always the best ones. They're always ones where I'm like, “This is the best episode you've ever done. Could you do six more of these?” They're like, “No, no, I can't. I had to record it three times. You hear it?”

Nicole Otchy: It's usually the vulnerable ones. Those are the ones that actually I have done well. I just came up with two episodes out. I mean, anybody on the outside would be like, "That's not vulnerable." But I was nervous because I was coming out in the industry that was unusual.

I was afraid it would alienate people, people that I even respect. What I found was the absolute opposite happened. Not only did it create an immense, I would say even more loyal following, actually, because it was original and not to be like, “Oh, I'm so smart,” but I just basically took something I saw and named it, which just felt very like, “Who am I to name this thing?” Like I was taking authority.

But somebody needed to say it so that people could do business better in the styling industry. When I did it, I thought, “Oh, God, some people are going to be like, ‘She's judging me.’”

What's wild is how many people identify as the one that I thought they would think I was saying something bad about, but what they said was, “You normalize this, and now I understand.”

That feeling of being like there's room here for everybody, we got to understand who we are and where we are in the space to be successful. I know that probably doesn't sound like a big deal from the outside, but if you're the only one saying it, and you don't think other people are going to resonate, it's scary.

What I have found with both podcasts is those are the episodes that people remember. Those are the ones that keep getting traction. You're only nervous in the beginning, but once you see that, it reinforces that you were nervous because you were on to something, I think.

Stacey Harris: I always make sure I go and message clients who have those episodes on the day they release or a couple of days after they release, and I go, “So how's the feedback?” Because the response is almost always, "It's been so good. I've had so many people in my inbox, or so many people in my DMs”, or I had one recently when they're like, "I booked three sales calls today." I was like, "Hmm, the episode we were afraid of. What do you know?"

Nicole Otchy: Well, I think too, it's because—it's so funny, we're talking about this because it made me think so many things—but what's so interesting is that sometimes we think that our nervousness is because something has gone wrong, but it's actually an indication that it's excitement, but we've not learned to dominate the two things. This will happen a lot in podcasting and marketing, I'm learning.

Stacey Harris: It's true. I remind myself regularly that anxiety is, or no, what is the phrase?

Nicole Otchy: Anxiety is excitement.

Stacey Harris: Anxiety is excitement that can't breathe. That's what it is. Whenever I'm feeling that, now granted, I have actual anxiety. Sometimes we do have to manage the medical side of it. But honestly, the anxieties feel different. I have figured that out. That's huge for you to recognize in yourself. It took me a really long time. I still hate to do in the moment where I go, “Wait, let's categorize this”.

But oftentimes it's just like, “Oh, let me take a couple of deep breaths and just do it.” Because the moment it's over, I'm going to be stoked. The moment it gets released, the moment I get feedback, for a lot of my clients, after I hear it and I go, "No, that was great," they're like, "Whew." They can sort of take that breath and be like, "Oh, now I can shift into just being stoked about this because I know it's going to be good." I love that.

I want to thank you for sharing all of this with us today. I have taken up lots of your time. As we wrap up now, can you tell us a little bit about what's going on? What's next for your show? If you've got anything you want to share with the audience?

Nicole Otchy: Yeah, I mean, I'm just going to keep on keeping on and having Stacey be my fearless guide and strategic genius. But I'm using the show a little bit differently. I was also doing one-to-one and I'm moving to a different business model that's one-to-many. I got a membership club. I got a group program, and then the podcast will go according to those sales cycles, which will be interesting.

I've never really done that before because I was so heavily in one-to-one in both my businesses, so I'm excited to think about that and really think about making sales assets, education assets, and just helping people make decisions and continue.

Stacey Harris: And hearing they say to you a bazillion times when you sell one thing, you sell everything.

Nicole Otchy: 100%, another Stacey genius. I may start making T-shirts with all these phrases on them.

Stacey Harris: We're going to have note cards.

Nicole Otchy: I'm telling you, just to wrap the episode, thank you for having me. If you were listening to this, there are very few people and I've been on a lot of podcasts in my career that I can, without hesitation, excitedly and I would pay twice what I've paid Stacey for what she does. She is so smart.

If you just do an intensive, because you're not ready for the whole thing, it will not just be good for your podcast, it will be good for your business. Obviously, those two things are connected, but just have a think about your business.

Please, if you've been listening to this podcast for multiple seasons, just take action. It will change your life because I've done it both ways and I do not recommend the other one. Thank you for having me. I love you.

Stacey Harris: I love you too. Thank you for being here.

I feel like Nicole did such a beautiful job wrapping this episode up that I'm not going to spend a ton of time here, but I wanted to point out a couple of things. I wanted to point out how imperative, no matter how she got there, the strategic work we did together, whether that was in the intensive, whether that was in the Profitable Podcaster Mastermind, or even in our quarterly calls now as part of her production contract, that stepping out, that getting perspective from someone other and the accountability of knowing what was going to happen, has all played a part in different ways depending on the way she worked with us.

I want you to look at what does support for you looks like right now, not forever, not the only thing I'll ever get, but right now, what kind of support do you need? I want to invite you to go get it, to look for it, to reach out. If that's booking in intensive with me, if that's getting on the waitlist for the Profitable Podcaster Mastermind, if that's hiring someone else, if that's starting to get more in-depth with your offer, or with some of the other things we talked about today that are ideally lined up before you get too deep in this work, do that.

Take action. Don't continue to sit in the “What is possible for me if I did that?” and start finding out by just putting one imperfect foot in front of the other. I think that's probably the biggest takeaway I'd love for you to have from this episode. Of course, I'd love to sit down and talk to you about what that work with me would look like. Head on over to uncommonlymore.com and explore whatever way speaks to you first.

A great option is that 30-minute call that you get when you sign up for an intensive. There's absolutely no obligation there, but it's a really good way for you and I to have a conversation so that I can help you decide what might be the right path right now. I'll see you over there and we'll talk soon. Thanks.

Thanks so much for listening to this show. Remember that content consumption does not make changes, so commit to doing something from today's episode. Maybe it's taking action on what we talked about. Maybe it's reaching out to me and learning more about Podcast Strategy Intensives or what podcast production looks like with our team. All of that is over at uncommonlymore.com.

If you haven't yet signed up for The Podcast Newsroom, I want to remind you that is a great next step. If you're not really sure what comes next, hang out over there. Get those exclusive private episodes. That's over at podcastnewsroom.com. The last favor I will ask, because social proof is endlessly important for sure, is to leave a rating and review for the show. If you go to ratethispodcast.com/more, that's the easiest way to do it. But I would love to hear what you thought of the show, what you think of the show, and if the show has been helpful for you. I can't wait to chat with you. This is just the start of the conversation. Reach out so we can keep it going. Talk soon.

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